Does HIV really cause AIDS?

topic posted Fri, September 14, 2007 - 3:58 AM by  Unsubscribed
"HIV MIGHT BE [HARMLESS]" - Dr. Montagnier (co-discoverer of HIV)

At the San Francisco International AIDS Conference in 1990, Dr. Luc Montagnier (the French guy who discovered HIV) claimed "HIV Might be Benign" (harmless). He obviously made these statements against his own interests, owning half the rights to the patent on the HIV tests.

"There are over 100,000 studies on HIV/AIDS and there is not one that has direct proof that HIV causes AIDS." - Dr. Peter Duesberg Ph.D., National Academy of Sciences, many have called him the worlds best expert on retrovirology.

If HIV is NOT the cause of AIDS, we are letting millions of people die of a disease while looking in the wrong direction. We would be wasting billions of dollars and would have committed the worst scientific blunder of the 21st century.



Does HIV really cause AIDS?


AIDS has been called the plague of the century and betrayed as some sort of medieval nightmare. We've been told it can strike anyone and everyone is at risk, it has no boundaries. For over 15 years now, AIDS has terrorized social America and we have spent 40 billion dollars and mobilized the greatest scientific research effort in the history of man. In fact, the "War against AIDS" has spent more money and utilized more scientific talent than it took to land on the moon. All this, while focusing on fighting a microscopic enemy (the HIV virus) for over twenty years with no success. So why has AIDS research failed? Could it possibly be that "AIDS research has not failed because it never found a cure...AIDS research has failed because it never found the cause!" as many respected researchers have been claiming ever since the beginning (including the guy who invented HIV). Yup that's right - hundreds of researchers worldwide have claimed HIV is NOT the cause of AIDS. This claim has constantly been dismissed by the government, suppressed in the media, and censored and suppressed (note: not disputed) by the political-economic powers of the AIDS industry. If HIV is NOT the cause of AIDS, we are letting millions of people die of a disease while looking in the wrong direction. We would be wasting billions of dollars, tortured countless animals without justification, and would have committed the worst scientific blunder of the 21st century. To understand why HIV has become the target of the campaign against AIDS, it's important to look back in history.

Following the depression of the 1930's and WWII, America entered a new era of technology and prosperity, as well as society changing as people were having more time for recreation and self realization. We conquered polio, the last great infectious epidemic of the modern world. New antibiotics emerged, giving cures for everything from minor infections to venereal disease. With the emergence of birth control came the sexual revolution; freeing the public from age old fears and norms. Homosexuality found more freedom and acceptance as gays came out of the closet and formed their own subculture. During the Vietnam era of the sixties, recreational drug use skyrocketed among the young and would continue to grow. Yet we remained optimistic that we could solve all our problems through our new faith in science and technology.

Before long, the consequences of this new 'liberated' lifestyle began to rear its ugly head and headlines began to emerge about a 'gay disease' starting in 1981. It was first thought to be caused by behavior unique to homosexuals. But soon, similar conditions began appearing in IV drug users and hemophiliacs. Gay Related Immune Deficiency (GRID), as it was called, was thought to actually be an infectious disease that might spread throughout the entire population. This threat of a deadly infectious disease that could be spread by sexual contact was sensationalized by both the media, as well as enraged gay activists who demanded action by the government. Threats in the media that this disease could be acquired by anyone sexually were now beginning to frighten everyone, not just homosexual males. Suddenly, immune deficiencies found common in only IV drug users, homosexual males, hemophiliacs, blood transfusion patients, and advanced TB patients, became linked together in a microbiological search for a common cause. The collective condition was transformed to Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome, or AIDS. As the fear of AIDS spread, and bath houses in San Francisco began to close, The Department of Health came under fire to find the cause and cure quickly. The public was willing to believe that science could find a quick fix. The funding began to roll in and the huge army of virus-hunters who had been unemployed by the unsuccessful cancer/virus program went back to work.

Scientists speculate (and I'm not disagreeing here) that AIDS patients lack the ability to fight infection due to a shortage of T-cells that co-ordinate immunity. In an AIDS patient, the level of T-cells (cells that help white blood cells produce antibodies to fight off infection) is below 200 per microliter of blood. In a healthy person, the level of T-Cells is about 600-1200 per microliter of blood plasma. Someone with AIDS has levels too low that when the patient gets an infectious disease such as the flu, pneumonia, or tuberculosis, their white blood cells cannot fight off the infection. Eventually the immune system gets ravaged by disease and will succumb to death. The official stance today is that the retrovirus HIV is what destroys T-cells and thus what leads to AIDS. But that will be debated as you read on.

But is HIV really what is killing T-cells? In the beginning, a lot of other causes where suspected, such as hard drugs that we know today to cause immunity suppression: heroin, cocaine, poppers, barbiturates, speed, PCP, LSD. Other causes: Malnutrition, repeated infection, overuse of antibiotics, and emotional distress. However these behavior-oriented characteristics where political incorrect to gay activists; who would never want to admit that AIDS could be self-inflicted. At the same time, researchers need money and promised results on being able to find a cure for an infectious disease, just like we did with polio and so many others. So, the decision was made politically, not scientifically, and the infectious epidemic model of AIDS was accepted (over the behavior-related model). Now all researchers had to do was promise to search for a vaccine or treatment and they could get funding.

Dr. Robert Gallo (National Cancer Institute) and Dr. M. Essex (Harvard AIDS Institute) were the first to suggest that "AIDS might be caused by a retrovirus" as early as 1982. Keep in mind that Gallo's prior work at the NCI failed to prove his theory that retroviruses caused cancer. He also failed to show they caused Alzheimer's Disease. Gallo believed to have found the retrovirus HTLV III to be the one that destroys T-cells. He approached the head of U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services Margaret Heckler to set up a press conference. On April 23, 1984, Heckler claims "The probable cause of AIDs has been found [HTLV III]" At the same time the press conference was going on, the blood test used to detect HIV was being patented, which would earn Gallo large royalties. Thus the AIDS Industry was born. Heckler claimed that a vaccine ready for testing would be ready by 1986. Everyone was happy that the cause had been found, especially gay activists, who were pleased the government had responded and would do something for them. But before the announcement, Gallo had bypassed a major checkpoint in scientific discoveries: he had not submitted his test results for peer review! Now no one had a chance to critique or verify his claim, and his test results were not published in Science magazine until one week after the press conference. We are talking about a major violation of scientific protocol here. Shortly after, researchers began to attack Gallo. Moreso, an International Lawsuit from France charged Gallo with scientific misconduct, because the Institute Pasteur claimed that Gallo had stole the discovery of Dr. Luc Montagnier, who had sent LTV (HTLV III) samples to Dr. Gallo six months earlier. This issue was settled diplomatically between Ronald Reagan and French President Jacques Chirac. Due to the settlement, the name of the virus was changed to an internationally recognized "HIV" and the profits from the blood tests was agreed to be split between Montagnier and Gallo.

It is now believed by the public that in order to get AIDS, you MUST be infected with HIV. However in Gallo's own original test results (in Science magazine, Vol. 224, May 4 1984), only 44 of 93 AIDS patients tested actually had the HIV virus. But Gallo claimed to be able to reproduce tests where up to 90% of AIDS patients had HIV, as did some other researchers, and thus it was soon internationally accepted by most that HIV must have something to do with AIDS.
Now let's meet one of the most outspoken critics on the HIV/AIDS hypothesis. Dr. Peter Duesberg Ph.D. was the first man to map the genes in viruses (like HIV) in the National Cancer Program at UC Berkley in the 1970's. His memberships include National Academy of Sciences due to his discovery of cancer-causing genes. Having researched retroviruses for over 30 years, many have called him the world's best expert on retrovirology. Dr. Duesberg was skeptical of Gallo's claim from day one. He says that Gallo's claim would have been the first time in the history of human or animal biology that a retrovirus could be the cause of a disease. For the next few years, Dr. Duesberg researched every single scientific publication on HIV and AIDS. When his conclusions came out On March 1st, 1987, in Cancer Research Magazine, he stood alone against the tide of public opinion and the government-funded AIDS Industry. He argues that HIV is not causing AIDS; and that HIV is a harmless passenger virus that has lived in humans for centuries without causing diseases. He believes that AIDS is caused by other non-infectious factors like drug use, and ironically enough, AZT, the AIDS drug. That might come to a shock to those of you who trust pharmaceutical companies: AIDS drugs causing AIDS itself?! Stick with me...

Many of Duesberg's colleagues studied his research and have come to the same conclusion. Among those are Nobel Prize winners like Dr. Walter Gilbert, Biochemistry Dept, Harvard (Nobel Prize, 1980) and Dr. Kary Mullis (invented Polymerase Chain Reaction, or P.C.R., Nobel Prize, 1993). And still, Duesberg's arguments in Cancer Research have still to this day never been responded to by Gallo or anyone else. A group of 12 of these scientists created The Group for Scientific Reappraisal of the HIV/AIDS Hypothesis. The group wrote a statement questioning Gallo's bold conclusions and asking for more independent research on HIV and AIDS. They wrote letters to practically every medical journal asking that their four-sentence long statement be printed; each time it was rejected. This made them angry, and they sought out to expand the list. It soon became 100 signatures and by 1994 reached 600; of these 188 had advanced degrees. The group of scientists has operated a newsletter and website for years now. Thus, many in the scientific community (including experts on virus' like HIV) have questioned the HIV/AIDS hypothesis from day one.

At the San Francisco International AIDS Conference in 1990, Dr. Luc Montagnier (the French guy who discovered HIV) claimed "HIV Might be Benign" (harmless). He obviously made these statements against his own interests, owning half the rights to the patent on the HIV tests. But the conference attendees were too brainwashed and kept going on talking about new antiviral drug treatments.
Why is the scientific community (really, only those who write scientific journals and who dictate what is taught in schools) ignoring such credible scientists? "Too many people are making too much money off of it" claims Dr. Charles Thomas, Fmr. Harvard Professor and Founder of the Group for Scientific Reappraisal of the HIV/AIDS Hypothesis. Dr. Thomas has learned that after two decades of his group being denied publicity, "...money is much stronger than truth." So...now you know why contesting the HIV/AIDS hypothesis has failed to overcome the scientific community. Now it's time you (the public) learn 10 Scientific Reasons HIV does NOT cause AIDS, and What the REAL causes of AIDS could be. It will also explain why conventional sex does not spread AIDS and why clean needles or condoms will do little or nothing to stop AIDS.

10 Scientific Reasons HIV does NOT cause AIDS

1. HIV (like all other viruses) is harmless after antibody immunity.
The HIV test does not test for presence or proliferation of HIV, or if it is attacking cells. The test shows if you have antibodies for the virus. If you have antibodies to chickenpox or the measles, it means you had it already. The virus is either eliminated or lays inactive in your body and will never make you sick again because your body has the antibodies to fight it if it begins to proliferate. Thus, when a person tests "HIV positive" this actually means they are now immune to the virus. This is why we give people vaccines, so that our bodies can produce antibodies against infectious diseases. No known viruses can proliferate faster than the body can produce antibodies to fight it off, and no known virus has been found to cause an illness ONLY AFTER the antibodies have done their job. Very rarely some infectious viruses can re-infect the host, but none of them do this ONLY AFTER antibodies are present.

2. HIV does not kill the T-cells it infects.
Because HIV infects T-cells, it was thought that HIV was killing them. But only under rare laboratory conditions do retroviruses kill their host cells. In fact, HIV researchers use T-cells to grow the virus because T-cells live compatibly with HIV.

3. HIV does not infect enough T-cells to cause AIDS.
Shortly after HIV is brought under control by the antibodies, the billions of virus particles become dormant and begin to disappear. HIV infects only 1 out of 1,000-100,000 T-cells. T-cells can reproduce at a rate of 5% per day. Therefore, even if HIV killed T-cells, it does not infect enough cells at a time to lower T-cell count and bring down the immune system. This is a notorious flaw in the HIV/AIDS hypothesis that supporters even claim has loose change. This is the reason it has been so hard to isolate the HIV virus (and thus create a vaccine for it); because it is so rare and hard to find.

4. HIV has no AIDS-causing Gene.
All retroviruses have only three major genes, GAG, ENV, and POL, and six minor genes. The amount of and sequences of genes in retroviruses is so limited, so they need all the genes to replicated. HIV is almost genetically identical to all other retroviruses. There are 50-100 different retroviruses that can be found in every healthy human body. HIV reacts no different than any of these in the way it mutates, becomes dormant, and re-activates. If none of these other retroviruses cause AIDS, why should HIV? If HIV DOES cause AIDS, why DON'T all the rest?

5. There is no such thing as a slow virus.
HIV is said to be a "slow virus" that takes 10-12 years after infection to cause AIDS. The only way to explain this would be to give HIV magical abilities to reactivate, mutate, migrate, and hibernate. Supporters of the slow virus myth base their hypothesis on studies of Epstein Barr, which they thought would include a cancer infection 10 years later, or herpes viruses, that reemerge in persons who have suppressed immunity and can't generate a sufficient defense. These both differ from HIV because large amounts of active virus can be found causing specific symptoms. In HIV, there are no symptoms until 10 years later. In total contrast, HIV is inactive but said to cause 30 different diseases 10 years later; none specific to HIV itself (some of those diseases, all of which are previously known include: strongyloldosis, aspergillosis, cryptococcosis, histoplasmosis, herpes simplex, Kaposi's sarcoma, toxoplasmosis, lymphoma, cytomegalovirus, leukoanceophalopathy, cryptosporidiosis, dementia). Viruses cause disease days, or weeks or at the very most, after infection - how long is a direct function of the "generation time" which is how long it takes the virus to infect the cell and generate new virus particles.

6. HIV is not a new virus, so it could not cause a "new" epidemic.
AIDS cases have increased exponentially ever since 1981. But HIV cases have stayed at roughly one million ever since the Center for Disease Control started testing in 1995. So for the last decade, we've had approximately the same number of people measured with HIV. Farr's Law of dating viruses states that an infectious virus will spread exponentially in a population (like a seasonal flu epidemic). If we've had the same number of HIV cases every year, HIV must be an old virus. HIV must have been infecting every generation for centuries, without causing AIDS. Duesberg claims HIV probably came into America with the first immigrants, and that anyone who has antibodies to it today, has gotten it parentally; from their mothers, not from dirty needles or unsafe sex.

7. HIV fails Koch's Postulates.
The universal test used by scientists to determine if a disease is being caused by an infection was developed over 100 years ago by Robert Koch, The Father of Bacteriology. Koch's Postulates states that 1) the organism/virus must be found in all cases of the disease, 2) you can isolate the organism and then 3) inject it into a new healthy host, and it causes the same disease in the new host, and 4) it must be found growing in the newly-diseased host. HIV fails part one because 10-20% of all AIDS patients have no HIV at all. When HIV is found, it is only in tiny amounts and is dormant. HIV fails part three because when health care workers accidentally are infected they rarely get AIDS (unless they use recreational drugs or AZT!).

8. AIDS has remained in its original risk groups for over 12 years; and different risk groups develop different diseases.
If a disease does not spread, it must be caused by something non-infectious. CDC studies show that AIDS is not spreading among the population at large and it is locked among its original risk groups; homosexual males (62%), IV drug users (32%), hemophiliacs (1%), and transfusion patients (2%) [CDC, Pharmac. Therm. Vol. 55, 1992]. Although HIV is evenly spread among men and women 50/50, AIDS cases are 90% male, 10% female [U.S. Army 1985-1996]. This could explain why drug use is more related to AIDS than HIV infection: In the U.S., males use over 80% of all hard psychoactive drugs. Among women with AIDS, approximately 60% use hard drugs also.

IV Drug Users who are HIV positive and die of AIDS develop Tuberculosis, Pneumonias, and Wasting Syndrome, whereas gay males (who do a lot of poppers) develop Kaposi's Sarcoma and Cytomegalovirus. The slow, wasting deaths of heroin addicts and other drug addicts have been documented in medical literature since 1898. What is interesting is that these same diseases are present in those risk groups WITH OR WITHOUT HIV. Drug users also loose the same T-cells as those who are HIV positive.

9. The International profile of AIDS patients is inconsistent.
A germ related disease would affect populations consistently. In the U.S., AIDS patients are 90% male 10% female. In Africa AIDS patients are 50% male 50% female. In the U.S., 97% of AIDS cases are among risk groups. In Africa, it affects people at random and there are no risk groups. Why does AIDS react differently in the Industrialized world? The best explanation for this is that HIV does not cause AIDS, and that in Africa, there is widespread malnutrition, parasitic infection, poor sanitation and other conditions causing immune deficiency. Those that test HIV positive and die of immune conditions are thus counted amongst official AIDS statistics. In the U.S. and Europe, where malnutrition is not a problem but where IV drugs are available and used mostly among males, we have 90% of immune deficiency among males, those of which who are HIV positive are counted amongst official AIDS statistics. One incentive for African countries to report deaths from diarrhea or poor sanitation as "AIDS" is to get money from the United Nations or World Health Organization.

10. AIDS occurs without HIV infection and most people with HIV never develop AIDS.
The evidence in support of the HIV/AIDS hypothesis is based SOLELY on correlation. Correlation does NOT mean causation. In the beginning, the official statistics showed that there were 4,621 cases of those who have died of AIDS but were found to be HIV negative. Since then, the official definition of AIDS was created to eliminate every case of AIDS without HIV. So as Dr. Richard Strohman, Ph.D., Fmr. Professor of Cell Biology at UC Berkeley says, "If you ignore all the cases where there isn't a correlation; [of course] there is a correlation...it's a self-fulfilling prophecy...it's not scientific" So, when someone dies of one or more of 30 specific diseases and are HIV positive, they are said to have died of AIDS. But when someone dies of one or more of 30 specific previously known diseases, but are found HIV negative, they die of that specific disease, be it pneumonia or TB. Those patients are NOT counted among the AIDS statistics and the data is skewed to create a perfect correlation: everyone who dies of AIDS had HIV. The WHO estimated in 1996 that 28.1 million people worldwide were HIV infected, and there were only 1.4 million AIDS cases. Therefore, 95% of those with HIV do not have AIDS.

Furthermore, the list of diseases that AIDS encompasses has increased over the years, and has skewed the data to make it look like the number of AIDS cases is actually increasing. Whereas dying of one of 10 diseases and having HIV was considered an AIDS death, today one of 30 diseases and having HIV is sufficient to count in official statistics as an AIDS death. By increasing the number of AIDS cases to make it look like an epidemic, AIDS researchers, AIDS charities, the United Nations, WHO, and third-world countries all can demand or expect an increase in funding. But if you question the official hypothesis, you are threatening a lot of people with some serious money. You are also frightening religious conservatives who can use the fear of AIDS to promote abstinence. That's not to say that I really believe that either of them are "in on a conspiracy." I just think that this is a big gigantic scientific blunder, which many researchers and charities are too close-minded to open up for discussion because they know they benefit from the myth too much. If we continue to put all our eggs in one basket, and continue to fail to produce any meaningful research to help people with AIDS, and if we ignore what could be the true causes (drugs), we are allowing 100's of 1000's of people to die from preventable causes each year.

I'm not completely sure. But based on how it probably isn't HIV means we should shift the funding to finding out the true cause of AIDS. But here is what Duesberg and others hypothesize (but aren't boldly claiming without concrete proof, unlike Gallo did): Drugs are the cause of AIDS in 9 out of 10 cases. Since 1981, there has been an increase in the cocaine and heroin use in the U.S. [use, overdoses, and hospital visit data, CDC], and the correlation between these drugs and AIDS cases correlate pretty well. Whereas, the correlation between HIV and AIDS does not. HIV has remained affecting 1 million people every year, and AIDS has skyrocketed from zero to half a million over a decade. Unlike HIV, we have a pretty good idea of how drugs suppress the immune system. It should be no awakening revelation to us all that hard drugs, especially drugs that "speed" you up and make you able to stay awake for days, have an adverse effect on your immune system. It's like owning a car and once a week, driving it 160 mph for days straight without rest. Of course the car isn't going to last as long as if you were to drive it 60 mph! So far no long term studies on drug use and AIDS has been conducted even though hard drug users who loose the same T-cells as AIDS patients, and who develop the same diseases as AIDS patients. But what we have done is promoted hard drug use by passing out clean needles and telling addicts it's OK to do drugs as long as you don't get HIV.

Why are 60% of AIDS patients in the U.S. gay males? There are two possible reasons. First, let's look at drug use. It's amazing that 96% of all gay males have used one drug that was available legally, known by many as 'poppers' or nitrate inhalants. In addition, 90% use marijuana, 50-70% amphetamines, 40-60% LSD, 25% barbiturates, 10% heroin, 50-60% cocaine, etc, etc. , Poppers are knows to cause Kaposi's Sarcoma, a rare form of skin cancer that affects around the nose, lungs, throat, and skin. It is found very high in gay men not infected with HIV.

Next, let's look at the preferred method that many gays have sex: anal intercourse. Whereas the vaginal tissue lining is 3 layers thick, the anal tissue lining is only one layer thick. During sex, the anus tears and foreign viruses along with semen and bacteria have a direct route into the blood. Contamination with feces and bacteria has been blamed for 'gay bowel syndrome' where the rectum and colon become inflamed, accompanied by diarrhea and malnutrition. Foreign proteins found in sperm have been found to be immune-suppressant. It has been suggested that when they enter the blood, they can trigger an autoimmune reaction, where the bodies' immune system turns upon itself. Small cuts on the penis are routes by which infection can spread to the person on the giving end. The use of condoms can protect against these foreign proteins from entering the blood, but is still not enough to protect the recipient from rectal tearing, which still exposes them to chemicals used as lubricants. Is it possible that lots of anal sex that produces infections in the anus can possible cause AIDS? This is very possible; especially when done in connection with heavy drug use.
Many gay AIDS patients (the promiscuous and sexually active ones) have multiple infections of gonorrhea, syphilis, hepatitis A and B, herpes, cytomegalovirus, and other diseases. To combat these repeated infections, gays take huge amounts of antibiotics (which are drugs!), which also wear down the immune system. In retrospect, it is not all gay males who are at risk for AIDS, but just those who are living one type of gay lifestyle: the fast-track, heavy drug use, and sexually promiscuous one. These make up a very small percentage of gay males.

OK, what accounts for the other 1 out of 10 AIDS Cases besides recreational drug use? Why the AIDS correlation between blood transfusion patients and hemophiliacs? It is a medical fact that the more blood you receive during a medical procedure, the less your chance of survival. About half of all transfusion patients die within one year after receiving a transfusion. It's the same reason your body will reject the organ from a non-human animal, or why there may be a risk for foreign proteins found in sperm or feces getting into the blood system. In order for your immune system to be healthy, your body would like your own blood and it wants it to be clean. The risk of AIDS in transfusion patients directly corresponds with how much blood they received and the condition of their illness; but not whether or not the person's blood they received had HIV (antibodies) in it. Duesberg claims that specifically, it is foreign proteins found in clotting factor VIII that have a dose-response in suppressing immunity among hemophiliacs. A British study (the Darby Study) on HIV/AIDS and hemophiliacs seems to support the HIV/AIDS theory by showing an increase in deaths among hemophiliacs testing HIV positive, but the study failed to control for the foreign proteins and thus it is possible that it was these that were actually causing immunosuppression, not HIV. The most alarming observation about this study shows a huge spike in deaths among HIV positive hemophiliacs, around 1984, and more exaggerated in 1988. 1984 is when hemophiliacs started to be tested for HIV and told if they had HIV. Since emotional distress has been known to cause immunosuppression, can there be an effect from the fear, terrorization, and diagnosis of death one has when told they have HIV and will die of AIDS? Furthermore, the 1988 exponential spike can easily be explained by the introduction and increased access to the first major AIDS drug, AZT.

How AIDS Drugs Cause AIDS: AZT was a poisonous chemotherapy drug that was banned because it destroyed the immune systems of cancer patients too badly. In 1987, when the AIDS scare was at its height, the FDA was pressured to re-approve the drug, this time for those with HIV/AIDS. It is even prescribed for people who are healthy, and have no sign of AIDS (but are HIV positive). It does not cure AIDS, and is only supposed to slow the progression. It does this by destroying all cells randomly. AZT destroys the genes and cells, especially in the bone marrow where white blood cells are made. These are the very cells that AIDS patients need the most yet they are being destroyed by "AIDS drugs"! Yup - that's a good name for them; call them what they are: AIDS Drugs. AZT destroys bone marrow, kidneys, liver, intestines, muscle tissue, the brain, and central nerve system. Because HIV infects 1 out of 1,000 T-cells, 999 healthy t-cells must die to kill 1 HIV-infected cell. Even the drug literature itself admits that AZT causes this. AZT clinical trials were an abysmal failure and even FDA Toxicologist requested that AZT not be approved. However, AIDS activists won a "victory" by getting the FDA to approve AZT. AZT costs a patient an expensive $8,000-12,000 a year, mostly paid for by the tax-payer. The maker of AZT was Glaxo Wellcome, today GlaxoSmithKline, who have generated sales of over a billion dollars a year just from AZT! A bottle of AZT costs $5 to make but is sold at $500 and the markup is subsidized by the taxpayers. AZT tricks patients, because initially it creates a small increase in the amount of T-cells. Duesberg explains, "when you go on AZT, it starts destroying your bone marrow, and your immune system says overproduce as much as you can...and for a while people start producing more [T-cells] than they did before the treatment [AZT]. As Dr. Charles Thomas, Jr., Ph.D., explains, "All toxic substances, initially, administer a positive response for a little while, for example...making a person stronger and healthier, for example, low level doses of radiation...ethylene chloride [etc], produce a lengthening of a lifespan of rodents...higher doses of course will kill them." Duesberg says that within a year or two, those on AZT die from it. Worldwide, 200,000 people, many who are not sick and who have no AIDS symptoms, are being treated with AZT.

Studies show that physicians are less likely to question authority than other professionals. As long as the HIV/AIDS theory is the official stance of the American Medical Association and U.S. Department of Health, physicians will not question it. If HIV is harmless and AZT is what is causing patients to die, physicians will probably be the last to know. AIDS deaths from those on AZT are 25% higher than those not on the drugs. And at the International AIDS Conference in Berlin in 1993, it was admitted AZT was ineffective in preventing AIDS among HIV positives.

Tremendous pressure is put on women to get HIV-tested and to be treated with AZT if they are found to be HIV positive. This has been found to cause abortion, malformed heads, extra fingers and toes, and holes in vital organs like the heart. Even if we are to say that HIV could be dangerous, it still does not make sense to feed AZT to pregnant mothers and their babies. Within 12-18 months after birth, 40-90% of babies who test HIV positive at birth are later HIV negative, because they develop their own immune system. Mothers who refuse to take AZT or giving it to their baby can find their physician calling Child Protection Services and having them arrested and jailed. Worst of all, their babies can be taken away from them indefinitely and placed into foster homes and submitted to AZT. Adopted children are usually tested for HIV before entering the U.S., and many have been forcibly put on AZT and have since died as a result.

Other newer AIDS drugs, like ddI and ddC are similar to AZT; in the same class of "chain terminators." The newest types of treatment for AIDS are Protease Inhibitors, which are supposed to prevent the virus from detaching from the cell, so that it cannot reproduce and affect new cells. Pharmaceutical corporations that produce protease inhibitors, like Hoffman-LaRoche (Saquinavir), Abbot Labs (Ritonavir), and Merck (Indinavir), all announce their drugs at press conferences (and see skyrocketing share-prices starting that day) rather than publish their research for scientific review. Dr. Duesberg has researched extensively and says he found "no clinical benefits of these protease inhibitors whatsoever."

Well I hope that sort of helps everyone think about what other scientists are saying and If you feel compelled to question this a little deeper, theres more info on AIDS specifically can be found at The Group for Scientific Reappraisal of the HIV/AIDS Hypothesis's website, www.rethinkaids.com or virusmyth.net or by google video-ing Aids Hoax. The information is out there, so research it more and learn the truth.
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  • Re: Does HIV really cause AIDS?

    Fri, September 14, 2007 - 11:31 AM
    Yes it does cause aids and it's irresponsible to suggest otherwise!
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      Re: Does HIV really cause AIDS?

      Fri, September 14, 2007 - 6:54 PM
      How is it exactly irresponsible? If millions of people are dying, it seems pretty responsible to question why after 23 years since its initial announcement, the AIDS industry has failed to find a solution, and bans media stations from questioning the AIDS hypothesis. The AIDs reappraisal group are a collection of scientists, some noble prize winners around a thousand PhD/MD's, the Perth Group, which is an entire team at the Perth Royal Hospital in Australia, who arent saying that it definately doesnt, but is questioning and asking to look at the original evidence. This has been denied. Why? Considering the HIV/AIDS hypothesis was the only medical disease hypothesis to be formalised and announced publicly, without being peer reviewed first, as is standard practise, then it seems to make sense that we may as well be able to look at the original evidence. Theres nothing wrong with questioning. Its irresponsible to follow something blindly without questioning. Are you a retrovirologist who was trained before 1984?
      • Re: Does HIV really cause AIDS?

        Fri, September 14, 2007 - 7:41 PM
        excuse me but what is your hiv status? are you on meds? how many of your closest friends or relatives have died from aids? What Is Your Personal Experiance with hiv/aids, Adam??

        get off your fucking soapbox dude. You're not original.
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          Re: Does HIV really cause AIDS?

          Fri, September 14, 2007 - 9:29 PM
          Uh yeah... A bit more vehement that I would have said, but yes.
          • Re: Does HIV really cause AIDS?

            Sat, September 15, 2007 - 1:21 AM


            adam, you have something to say and thats fine... and i would like those who dodnt agree to be civil and respond in kind. soap box it maybe but i think that a questioning view is important in all aspects of life.

            someones status is not relevent, neither is whome they may know with said status. what is important is to care and take an interest in what is effecting millions of people every day!

            i happen to agree with adam. there is a lot to be said about the dissenting arguement. how many conditions have been proven beyond reason to then be completely challenged? how many proven drugs have failed and have killed or made countless people ill?

            one can be diagnosed and decide the drugs do more harm than good, but even to take this stance puts one in the disadvantage of removal of care, support and understanding. there is virtually no 'alternative' state sponsorship of herbal care, cognative therapies, dietry review or exercise. its either take the drugs or go away! some folk dont even get to hear of an alternative.

            the illness's defined as AIDS can be cused by a million factors, the co-incidence of hiv is where the debate in part lies. to lump it all up together defies so called medical norms and is a convenient cover when really all that can be said is "your ill and we dont know why" the latest "lets dump all these wierd illness togther and not deal with underlying issues" is ME or chronic fatigue.

            we live is a toxic world and yet we accept without question what the practitioners of this world have created! the chemical-pharmo industry that makes us sick gives us the "cure" and we all merrily go along with this?

            there is something very wrong about this!

            • Unsu...
               

              Re: Does HIV really cause AIDS?

              Sat, September 15, 2007 - 3:41 AM
              I concur wholeheartedly,. And thankyou. My aim is not to make people angry or upset, I know this is a touchy area for alot of people, and quite rightly so, but I do think its something that needs to be discussed alot more, and at least brought to peoples attention that there are some holes in the argument. There are so many illnesses nowadays for which we all live in fear of, and feel completely powerless. And yet as history shows us, we always believe we are right, unquestioningly at any given time, and its only with hindsight that guture generations can realise how illogical things were. I just like to make sure we're really on the right path is all.

              Unfortunately, as you say, Governments are simply not interested in funding or supporting any other industry than the pharmaceutical industry. Considering they practicaly dictate the entire syllabus form medical students, it makes the truth sometimes a little bit hazy. People are then forced to believe, doctors and the public, that this really is all there is. Disease and drugs to fix them, even if these drugs cause other problems further down the line.

              Im particualrly interested in the 'Natural Hygiene' model of healthcare, which aims completely to treat the cause of disease rather than the symptoms, and so relies on no external therapies to treat the symptoms. It just relies on the body. It changes lifestyles patterns, eg. stress, confidence, diet and exercise. And in extreme states of disease, water fasting is employed. Having experienced first hand how powerful this is in healing the body, I know that there is something to be said for Fasting. Yet the pharmaceutical industry has done its best to fearmonger people into believing that this is too dangerous and damages the body, when actually it improves health significantly when all else faisl. Providing it is done properly. I witnessed lots of people get rid of "incurable" diseases this year, during a 6 week fasting holiday, and watched my own health improve day by day, and continue to improve long after the fast. Yet where is the support for this modality? Most people have heard of herbalism and acupuncture, and are starting to see these as alternatives, which is great. But who's heard of the long lost art of Natural Hygiene, which was what made Hippocrates so successful? Most people think you're crazy when you talk of fasting to them. And why shouldnt they? There isnt a single course in the UK which teaches Natural Hygiene. You wont even find a book on it in the health food shops. And why? Because theres no money in it. You cant sell anything.

              I think more people need to learn about the true causes of health and disease, so they can know what to do to get well.

              so thats my main intention really, just to question, and to invite anyone else whos interested to question along with me.

              • Re: Does HIV really cause AIDS?

                Sat, September 15, 2007 - 6:39 AM
                Your point of view, well meaning as it may be, is idealist and unrealistic.

                I'd be will to "go along for the ride" with you just to see where your head is at, but you have "Unsubscribed" from Tribe already.

                As a person living with hiv, surrounded by friends with hiv, and having lost my younger brother to hiv/aids, I most DEFINATELY take issue with this thread topic! I have every right to come on strong! But the poster has cowardly dissappeared already. It's like a drive-by bitch slap! Grrrrrrr.
                • Unsu...
                   

                  Re: Does HIV really cause AIDS?

                  Sat, September 15, 2007 - 7:11 AM
                  Hello, I have come back seeing as you feel so strongly that I left. I didnt leave because Im a coward, I left because I find it boring talking to myself, seeing as you're clearly uninterested in even listening. I can udnerstand why you feel so strongly, when your world is surrounded by HIV/AIDs, but I dont think that changes anything. Im not saying AIDs doesnt exist. Its a very real phenomenon. I just question whether HIV causes it.

                  HIV testing doesnt even mean anything. The testing methods used even state that they should not be used for diagnosing HIV since they are unreliable. In different countries, they test for a number of different things when screening. This means that one person in Australia testing for HIV, may not get a diagnosis. Yet in America, they would.

                  The medication that people take when they have been told they are HIV positive could not possibly help treat AIDs, since it causes immunodeficiency. so called "anti-retrovirals" were designed to be Chemotherapy drugs, but were deemed too toxic. If you know anythign about chemotherapy, then you will know that you are not treated with chemotherapy every day for the rest of your life, when diagnosed with cancer. Because chemotherapy is a race. It destroys DNA synthesis, which means it destroys your cells. You are racing to kill the cancer before you kill yourself. you usually take it for a few weeks on, then take a break, and have a few weeks off to give your body time to recover. with anti-retrovirals, they were deemed too toxic to be used in cancer treatment, and yet they are given every day for the rest of your life. When you take a drug that destroys the very cells (CD4 T-lymphocytes) youre supposed to stop HIV destroying, how can you expect to get well. Its simply not possible.

                  Plenty of people are diagnosed with HIV and the dont take medication and they never get AIDS. They get colds etc. just like everyone else does, and jsut like they did before they were diagnosed, but they dont get AIDS.

                  I just think theres more going on here, than most people want to think about.

                  Having HIV yourself, and having lost your younger brother does not mean you should be averse to questioning. It should be even more of an incentive.

                  I dont think its idealistic or unrealistic, since the theory is founded in science and is supported by some of the worlds most prestigious scientists. Im not saying the theory is correct, Im just saying its worth investigating further.

                  In my opinion, people develop AIDS (not HIV) either because of lifestyle choices (eg. taking too many pharmaceutical or street drugs) or because they got scared and started taking Anti-retrovirals.

                  If you are interested in health, and your health, then do soem research for yourself. I dont think believing something just because someone else tells you thats how it is, or because a collective tells you thats how it is, is a healthy way to be. A lot of damage has been done to humans, animals and the planet because people blindly put their faith in other people.

                  My advice to you and to others reading is not to believe me, but not to believe the establishment either. Just study both sides, and actually study it, rather than studying the side you want to be true, as most scientists do, to create self-fullfilling prophecies. But just question. When you find a point in either argument that doesnt make sense, question it, study, research, until you find the answers you're looking for. Its only then that you can make informed choices and have informed beliefs.

                  Take Care

                  Adam x
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Does HIV really cause AIDS?

                    Sat, September 15, 2007 - 9:31 AM
                    im gl;ad you came back adam. people are interested but unsubscribing so fast makes me wonder why you bothered joining?

                    id advise anyone interested to join the "questioning aids" tribe.

                    ive got a strong vested interest in this debate as well and meds or no meds its a difficult choice. but we all must keep questioning and listen to our hearts.

                    we all need to support each other in this as in many things that impact on us. whatever is decided! lets try and discuss and learn.




                    • Unsu...
                       

                      Re: Does HIV really cause AIDS?

                      Sat, September 15, 2007 - 6:55 PM
                      Thankyou, yes, I understand, I guess it was abit soon to withdraw my account. I just hoped to spark of interesting discussion, and all I got was people taking offence and having to defend myself. I guess I wondered whether I really want that, but I guess thats to be expected, and I should be more patient.

                      I didnt realise there was a questioning aids group. Thankyou, ill be sure to join them. :o)

                      Take Care

                      Adam x
                      • Re: Does HIV really cause AIDS?

                        Mon, September 17, 2007 - 7:39 AM
                        Ooooops, queer pagans should surely have an open mind about other causes of aids then the cryptic virus what was never discovered hiv.

                        For the record. I have hiv antibodies for 16 years now, have been on meds for 6 years and stopped meds last year. And I have never felt better since I stopped the life threatening meds. And, this seems to give credits, I have lost many friends on aids.

                        Now from queer pagans I would like to hear some pagan insights about how a virus kills mostly white gay men in the western world and man and women in the rest of the world. Now don't come with the usual virus hythesis, thats what we heared for many years and that hypothesis doesn't fit.

                        Is AIDS nature striking back? A revenge of the gods? Just a regulating meganism?

                        From queer pagans I would like to have spiritual suport if I decide NEVER to take killing chemics again. Even if I die, because I will die anyway.

                        Any queer pagan insigts about AIDS? If hiv doesn't cause aids, how do we go on? Or do we just follow what our doctors tell us? I think we know better.

                        LOVE
                        Prayoga
                        • Unsu...
                           

                          Re: Does HIV really cause AIDS?

                          Mon, September 17, 2007 - 10:17 AM
                          Well I dont think we really need to hear "pagan" insights, since the laws of life and the universe are the same as for our bodies.

                          In africa, people are dying because they have malnutrition, unsanitary water and living conditions, stress, parasitic infection...and because of the anti-retroviral therapy drugs.

                          In the western world, we have malnutrition (though unlike in the 3rd world, its not because we dont eat enough, its because we eat too much shitty food), stress, toxins in the water (even though its still cleaner than 3rd world countries, you'd be distrubed what water samples find in our supplies) toxicity from lifestyle habits (recreational drug abuse, smoking, drinking caffiene and alcohol and other shit) and toxicity from the medication. esp. the Anti-retrovirals.

                          In my opinion, its not so much nature fighting back, as nature just winning. Were pushing the boundaries of what nature sees as being in balance/harmony and what is not. Now our diet, lifestyle, greed, disconnection from nature, and toxicity and over-dependance on drugs and external sources to help support/educate us, has gone too far. And its time to step back in line.

                          Take Care

                          Adam x
                          • Ted
                            Ted
                            offline 4

                            Re: Does HIV really cause AIDS?

                            Mon, September 17, 2007 - 10:34 PM
                            Yes, in the western world we have stress and toxins and what have you, but until recently only gay men and people who had been exposed to infected blood products have been developing AIDS. If it was environmental/stress related, wouldn't stockbrokers and other folks in high stress occupations be developing symptoms at a higher rate than the general population?

                            AIDS has been a problem for 25 years. If HIV isn't the cause, what is? Donuts? Heroin? Poppers? The AIDS/HIV epidemic has been around for the entire time that I have been out as a gay man, and I have been following these arguments during that time and you and your fellows still haven't explained how an entire generation of gay men (at least) have died off and yet it isn't a virus.

                            I am far more inclined to believe the "CIA created virus" theory than Duesenberg's Donuts & Drugs pablum.

                            Further, living in SF I can testify that the Cocktail has saved lives. Does it work for everyone? No. But all of my positive friends on it have gone from sitting at home and waiting to die to thinking about the future and what they want to do with their lives. All of them have returned to work after being on disability. A comparison of the Bay Area Reporter's (SF's gay rag) obit pages is all of the evidence that I need. 15 years ago, it was 4+ pages long on a weekly basis, now most weeks it barely fills a full page.

                            Finally, Adam you posted this to a "pagan" queer tribe, why wouldn't someone post about pagan insights? So dismissive of others, but you want us to listen to you. My post may sound angry, but I would have to say that I am more frustrated than anything. Frustrated that this crazy-ass BS is STILL being put forward. Frustrated that after all of this time, the same stale arguments are still being put forward with the same stale quotes from the same cast of characters.

                            The science you are quoting is at least 15 years out of date. Welcome to the 21st Century! For folks who would like a short rebuttal of Adam's pseudoscience, a few examples can be found here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dues...hypothesis
                            • Ted
                              Ted
                              offline 4

                              Re: Does HIV really cause AIDS?

                              Mon, September 17, 2007 - 10:46 PM
                              PS. I didn't even address the homophobia of the whole Duesberg Donuts & Drugs Theory. Are you a gay man yourself Adam? Perhaps a little time examining your own attitudes is in order. Your feelings of self loathing projected on the larger gay community, and those who are HIV positive in particular, is an understandable, if all too human, reaction to your own fear of death.

                              Perhaps a nice sweaty, hairy pagan man in your area can work with you on that. There are a few in the UK, or so I'm told.

                              Use a condom, just in case. And please leave the AZT at home.
                              • Unsu...
                                 

                                Re: Does HIV really cause AIDS?

                                Tue, September 18, 2007 - 1:30 AM
                                Hey Ted,

                                Sure, sometimes so called 'pagan' logic is a good reference point, and I agree, it makes sense to look at it from that perspective. Especially on a pagan forum. But I just dont happen to think there is a difference between science, common sense, and pagan logic. Its all the same thing. If it isnt, then I think theres a flaw somewhere. You're right, perhaps I was a little too dismissive of it. Why should I expect to be listened to, when I dont do the same. I guess I was just felt like he was missing the point. pagan logic, common sense, and science are and should be the same, because theyre all part of the same natural laws. But maybe he wasnt saying theyre not. I can be ignorant, you're right, but Im human, and sometimes I need to be reminded of things. So thankyou.

                                As for the Gay men issue, sure, theres a lot of people who have high-stress jobs. I dont think its when people have high-stress jobs alone. Thats the thing, we all eat shit, we all dont sleep enough, we all have stress and environmental and other toxicities. But Some more than others. And some are born with weaker immunities than others, or hypersensitivity.

                                There was something in common with the people who originally got AIDS (pre-AZT obviously). They didnt sleep enough, they took recreational drugs alot, especially ecstacy and poppers (which suppresses immunity) and took lots of anti-biotics due to repeated infections. Duesberg wasnt homophobic. He wasnt saying that this is to do with all gay people. Its to do with a particular lifestyle choice.

                                Im not convinced Duesberg is really homophobic at all. I think thats the problem. Weve suffered oppression for so long that now if anything about our lifestyle is questioned or threatened we jump on the offensive. Im not homophobic, and dont have a problem with being gay at all. Im just happy to detach my emotional self every now and again, so I can think objectively and question whether or not something is possible. Rather than simply reject it. I dont have anything against HIV positive men in the gay community, thats why Im posting this on a queer pagan forum. HIV is not the same as AIDs. When people are pre-AIDs, they can make a choice about whether to put AZT in their bodies or not.

                                And youre right, alot of what I presented is out of date. But by no means is it untrue. It just means theres more to add to the argument.

                                The perth group question whether it even exists at all (HIV) that is, ie, whether it was isolated in the first place. They have a fair amount of research on their website.

                                I was also reading something on the questioning AIDS forum, which talked about the possibility of the AIDS theory being the wrong way round. HIV being produced/released as a byproduct of apoptosis, which the body recognises and produces antibodies to. When AIDS is present, obviously apoptosis will be occurring alot more rapidly, and so hence the body recognises more of the HIV, so theres more antibodies being produced and hence the positive link.

                                I dont have the answers, noone on either side of the fence does. And thats the point, and why Im here, posting this. Not because I out-and-out believe it, but because it makes more sense than the current theory, and because it fits in with Natural Hygiene, which as a model of healthcare, actually works in practise, unlike our current model.

                                Take Care

                                Adam x
                                • Unsu...
                                   

                                  Re: Does HIV really cause AIDS?

                                  Tue, September 18, 2007 - 1:35 AM
                                  Ps. Sorry, I didnt comment on your friends re: AIDs drugs. Sure, if your friends have been given a death diagnosis, who isnt going to sit at home and feel depressed. Sitting home worrying and waiting for death isnt going to do much for your health. And every time you get ill (which you will due to the cortisol levels from worrying so much) youll think "is this it? is this AIDS". How can anyone get well with this going on?

                                  If you start taking AIDs meds, then of course youre going to have a new lease of life. Weve been conditioned since birth to trust our doctors and prescriptions. So as soon as you get a pill that will help with your 'condition' then you're going to feel better. The placebo effect is well documented.

                                  As for the meds Saving lives? How would you know? They never opted NOT to take the meds.

                                  Take Care

                                  Adam x
                                  • Re: Does HIV really cause AIDS?

                                    Tue, September 18, 2007 - 12:30 PM
                                    This really got me thinking. First I work in the medical field, so allot of what was said about corruption, drug companies and the financial issues really makes sense. Didn't need to go see Sicko, I see it on a daily basis. From a pagan/holistic perspective I think that there are many contributing factors to disease. As an example almost every human is positive for strep throat and herpes 1 but is only when our systems get run down and were not taking care of our selves do we actually get "sick." I have also known people who have been positive for over 20 years and are more healthy than many negative people I know, but they also take realiy good care good of them selves. By taking care of out psychical, mental, emotional, and spiritual wellbeing there are allot of illnesses we can avoid, cure or manage. popping pills is not the only way to treat disease.
                                    This post has inspired me to do some deeper research. It is always foolish to simply accept what is told to you, especially if it comes from the government, large drug companies, or faceless posters online. There are some points that seem to ring true and others that I am highly skeptical. There are many theories, conspiracy or otherwise out there about HIV/AIDS and tons of misinformation. Find out for yourself!
                                    I have always enjoyed the fact that the pagan community is generally very open minded and freethinking. It is one of the things that attracted me in the first place. With a magical world view it is essential. As many of us know, things are not always as they seem and hard science has yet to provide sufficient explanations for much of what we know and believe to be true. There are powers, forces and realms of this existence that we still know nothing about. There have been thousands of times science and medicine has made claims that we later found to be totally erroneous. Thus it is totally plausible that we have completely missed something or we could be mistaken. In the mean time I'll still play safely.
                                    • Re: Does HIV really cause AIDS?

                                      Tue, September 18, 2007 - 1:52 PM
                                      Thank you Boone for these words.
                                      You verbalize a lot what I think, and being a foreigner I have to copy pste a lot to expres myself.
                                      The HIV hypothesis is now common knowledge allthough not proven. And we, the alternatives have no good alternative.
                                      So I am left with a deadly cure for a deadly disease. Makes the choise easy, I have no choise, it is death or death...:-)))
                                      And we die anyway... so whats the problem?
                                      • Re: Does HIV really cause AIDS?

                                        Tue, September 18, 2007 - 2:30 PM
                                        the big question for me is being allowed to have an informed decision and choice. that is not what we get. i suffered for countless years with lyme disease, then hep c then hiv...its all in the bag and by all accounts i should have died years ago... well i still bumble along and take no meds. set aside all the candida, parasite and other infections and symptoms that flag up the great "AIDS DEFINING ILLNESS" tag!

                                        folk get ill for many a reason, immunity and stress are obvious ones, as are genetic disposition and so on and so forth... so we must deal! as for consiparcy theory, mine is that prescribed illness/conditions can be rounded up and placed on groups for no reason than to demoralise and undermine that group, that other factors are at play is not in question but why can no answers be found? dissenters are told to come up with answers yet $200 billion dollars later and what have the aids determinators come up with? feeble answers is all! oh and a great industry! jesus, with that amounts of money and propaganda i could convince the worlds population that the world is flat and that the sun revolves around the earth! so no wonder everyone has bought the so called "line"!

                                        as a queer pagan, for me, its about being in touch with my body and questioning "why am i ill" it has, in fact, been a gatewasy to new spiritual revelations and insights that crisis inevitably brings. ive used this to heal and help others... to know suffering is to help others in theirs?... sometimes.

                                        being queer and pagan is deffinately about being questioning and not accepting the norm! its also, i believe, about self defining and as ive said making up your own mind.

                                        also as a pagan i work with intuition, and my whole body says no! this is all wrong! be strong and learn. ive ignored this feeling/knowing before and its caused me great harm.

                                        what i find exausting is being told how wrong i am, how im screwing up my life and en-dangering others and so on! this is such a load of BS! well-being is paramount to me and if i choose not to take chemo-drugs thats my choice and should be supported! that doctors undermine us on this is to disempower us. illness is almost willed on us!

                                        so taking mind and spirit out of dispair and fear is the first step we should all recognise. if drugs do that for some then so be it and if not taking drugs helps then so be that! but lets at least recognise there is more to an arguement that yay or nay.

                                        and yes prayoga we do all die... at differnt rates and in many ways... we also live! and we can also choose how to do that!

                                        x d
                                        • Re: Does HIV really cause AIDS?

                                          Tue, September 18, 2007 - 3:29 PM
                                          I admire you draeyk as I admire myself.
                                          I stopped taking hiv-medicine 1,5 years ago and never felt better.
                                          One can be ill and feel great and one can be cured and feel never so sick.

                                          I am over on the body side. My body knows best. Taking medicine makes me sick and live longer. Living with an illness can make me feel helthy. Western medical medicine can leave people alive but do they/I live? I feel alive without medicine. And then, it would be nice to know the cause of aids... but do I have aids? I am hiv antibody positive. Normaly this means one has survived the virus.

                                          I have no answer, I have my experience. If you feel good, leave the medicine! (did the same with 2 heart attacs...:-)
                                          • Re: Does HIV really cause AIDS?

                                            Tue, September 18, 2007 - 7:13 PM
                                            Whether to take hiv meds or not is a very personal decision and should be made with the professional advice of an infectious disease specialist. I, for one, trust my doctors.

                                            When my brother got sick, he was already very sick. We honestly didn't know what was wrong with him. He was a straight man. He died from complications associated with aids within 2 years after that point. He started on AZT too late and it was pretty much the only hiv med out there at that time. He died a slow, horrific, painful death. My family stuck by him to the very end. My parents were devastated.

                                            When I tested positive years later (because of stupid decisions I made while using drugs), my stats weren't so great either. My t-cells were hovering at the 200 mark (199 and below is consider full blown). My viral load was through the roof! It took a while to find the right meds for me, but once I did, they quite literally saved my life. My t-cell count is nearly 800 now and my viral load is so low I'm officially undetectable.

                                            Both my room mates are positive also. One of them, he's 26, is involved in the NIH aids vaccine program. We literally live within a few miles of NIH in Bethesda and the division of the FDA that approves new hiv/aids drugs. My room mate has picture perfect good health now. Of course he has a team of the best doctors in the world studying him!

                                            Truthfully, this thread irritates the fuck out of me. Young, naive Adam offends me. What exactly, if ANY is your true life experiance with this topic, Adam?

                                            I deal with the reality that my brother is dead and I am alive, thanks to advances in this field of medicine. The "arguement" that hiv does not cause aids and that hiv medicine does not save lives - is a crock of shit! I pity anyone who'd buy into that crap.

                                            One very pissed off pagan
                                            - Lucian
                                            • Re: Does HIV really cause AIDS?

                                              Wed, September 19, 2007 - 1:29 AM
                                              whos professional advise? doctors??? im happy you trust yours, thats actually a big step. i do not trust mine, with very good reason! if you arrive and challenge any assumption one is generally met with wholey innaccurate answers and tales of what will happen if you dont take the meds. so by their arguements i died in 1999??? im an anomoly i guess?

                                              lets be clear at no point have i felt the need to tell you or anyone they are killing themselves with a wreakless belief in combination therapy so id appreciate the same from you! its your choice and to be honest if it helps you taking the meds then thats fine. but please dont imagine our decision is easy or misinformed! its actually very well informend! i would suggest reading a little bit about it, can it do any harm to actually question? your comments about "full blown aids" is text book circa 1980, what is full blown aids? the indicator you use, i.e. t-cells being below 200, or 300; as the've shifted the goal posts here, is a meaningless statement and only useful in that it puts us on the back foot!

                                              i know it its a difficult one to discuss with objectivity. adam is young but that dosnt negate his comments. i am less young and have been touched by the whole hiv/aids situation and similarly feel strongly about it. yes we get pissed off but then its emotive and we have different opinions.

                                              let me also say that focus on t-cells and viral load is not the whole story. otherwise why would i know so many people with low t-cell, high load and feeling fine and so many with high tcell and low viral sick?! i might know more if people were not so quick to take the drugs and look at other ways of being healthy! anyway, there is more to health that those two indicators, whatever they in fact do indicate! and its no coincidence that the most common form of death among those on combination is liver failure... the drugs do harm you...there is no debate here... its on the lable! a side effect is an effect! we take meds of anykind and they harm and cure in some measure. its all about the balance of what we deem the most important effect we want now! and our ability to accept that!

                                              antibiotics may kill a bug that makes us sick but kills of bugs that make us well! then our body is open to infection, inbalance and so on. so we make a choice: i might take them if im very ill with a lung infection, but an NSU? no i would not. i would also work for a month after at repairing the damage to the rest of my body. combination dosnt allow for much of that. but i hope that you and anyone on it works at having a health lifestyle to help yourselves deal with its less desirable effects!

                                              ill dig it out but the last lancet report (2006) on combination, involving 20,000 people and stated that morbidity was not lessened by the use of the drugs. i took this to some doctors and they dismissed it. while showing me a report based on 15 people that they had improved short term health through takling the meds! go figure!

                                              i would always argue that quality of life is where its at. and as ive said before, what works for one may not for another.

                                              x d

                                              • Unsu...
                                                 

                                                Re: Does HIV really cause AIDS?

                                                Wed, September 19, 2007 - 1:06 PM
                                                I think thats a very important point that Boone has made here actually. People often blame 'germs', bacteria and viruses for disease. People forget that bacteria/viruses (ill call these germs from nw on to make it easier, except when talking about specifics), dont just proliferate in any old conditions. If they did, then we would always be ill all the time. Infact we would never have got this far in our evolutionary development because we would have died millions of years ago. The fact is, there are now and probably always have been germs in our bodies, and in the air, water and food we intake. Its only a problem when they proliferate (multiply and get out of balance). Germs require very specific conditions to thrive. In our bodies, germs love heat (esp. produced by inflammation) and moisture. Mucus is the perfect breeding ground for bacteria and viruses. When we eat a shit diet, and never exercise or drink water, and live in a place with dirty unclean air, our bodies will continue to produce excess mucus to the point that bacteria and viruses can proliferate. So our bodies get overwhelmed and decide they need to clean house. It produces symptoms, telling us to stop. Its even intelligent enough to suppress our appetite, so we can stop bombarding it with more shit. but what do we do, we say, oh no, youve got to eat to keep your strength up, best take some medication to get rid of these annoying symptoms. The problem is, we dont respect or understand the workings of our body. Our body isnt stupid. It produces symptoms to teach you a lesson, to make you pay attention that something we are doing is wrong. But we think that our body is just doing a lousy or mediocre job at keeping us healthy, and attempt to poison ourselves into health.

                                                Would you feed AZT to a newborn HIV negative baby? No of course not. Why not? Because it would halt its growth and shut down its immune system. It would poison it. So why, when your immune system is overwhelmed, would it make sense to poison yourself into health? ever. Poison overwhelms the system. The reason we appear to make improvements isnt because drugs help us, its because our body is intelligent enough to prioritise. Overwhelmed, it notices that there is something more immediately threatening, so it deals with that first and increases immune and liver response even more to deal with the drugs and the sickness. So you do become less symptomatic, because your body has had to use up massive energy reserves on dealing with two things at once. Which your body wouldnt ordinarily do, because it is more intelligent than to exhaust itself. Because it knows that what goes up must come down. So we go into overdrive to combat one challenge, but then in the long run, weaken our energy levels and immunity and liver functioning to compensate.

                                                So if youre taking recreational drugs, your immune system is going to be overwhelmed. And if you take AZT, it is so toxic that yes, you will appear to get well. because your immune system is doing the same thing. It is working overtime to overcome this new challenge. but it cuts down your lifespan and overall system functioning to compensate. Sooner or later, we get AIDs and die.

                                                Its called the law of limitation, and the body has them.

                                                I agree with Draeyk, Im not saying you shouldnt take AZT if you dont want to. Thats always your choice. If you're immune system is compromised, it will give the illusion of improvement in the short term. But long term, it cannot help because it is far too toxic. If you take measures to reduce the load on your body, by eating more whole fresh ripe raw organic plant foods, and by exercising, and learning to be less stressed, and sleeping alot more, then you will notice more health improvements in the long term, than with drugs.

                                                the conditions for health are t